Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: My name is Leland Hale. I'm the author of Butcher the True Crime Story of serial killer Robert Hansen.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: My name is Cindy Paulson. This is my story.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: At age 17, Cindy Paulson escaped from serial killer Robert Hansen. Her escape ultimately led authorities to Hansen's arrest and conviction on four charges of murder. Ultimately, Hanson confessed to 17 murders, but there were more, at least 24.
Cindy was one of the lucky ones.
Note this podcast features adult themes and some salty language. Lister discretion is advised.
Episode 4.
After the ordeal at the Anchorage Police Department, Cindy and her pimp decide to leave Anchorage. As is often the case with people on the run, they returned to Nate's hometown, Portland, Oregon. At least they'd have his Cadillac.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't. I went and stayed at Nate's mom's house in Portland. Yeah. And I slept in her bed with her.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Okay. There's a detail.
You were too scared to work the streets?
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I had to sleep. I. I was just freaking. So I just slept in bed with her.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Nate, however, is dependent on Cindy in ways he's reluctant to admit. At a certain point too soon, it seems he's on the verge of financial collapse.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: I remember having a conversation with Nate saying he's running out of money and that I'm gonna have to do something.
I'm like, okay, okay. So I go out and I start working, and I get busted, and he has to bail me out.
And I think he put up his fur.
And then I get busted again right away because they're on to me, you know, I don't know if I was the number one person or what, but I got busted twice in a row, and I. I had to go. I couldn't stand to go to court. I couldn't pay fines. I couldn't go to jail.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: At about the same time, investigator Dennis went to the Big Timber Motel in Anchorage. He wanted to follow up on Cindy there. The motel manager told him that Cindy left the motel owing a, quote, large telephone bill to a number in Portland, a number that belonged to the 6th Avenue Motel in downtown Portland. Dennis immediately called his counterpart at the Portland police Department.
The Portland police told Dennis that, yes, they had arrested a woman who went by the name of Cindy Paulson, Although her real name was Felicia Lee Redmond. She'd been arrested on June 24 for soliciting for prostitution.
Nate, meanwhile, was scrapping for and out.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: So Nate goes out, and he gambles. His friend was little. Little tone. And they get the money together, and they ship me back to Alaska. And he says, just spin. Just send Me money, you know, Basically, he wanted just to get rid of me.
In hindsight, you know what I mean?
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: I think he found somebody else.
The girl that was with him before me.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: For her part, Cindy's views on Nate are rapidly dwindling.
Well, I mean, we've already talked about him sort of feeling.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Guilt.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Squishy.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Yeah, squishy.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: About the whole deal, right? Like he. Yeah, he was tail between his legs.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: He didn't go do nothing. He couldn't protect me. I mean, you know, I'm damaged.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: On July 1, Portland police sent copies of Cindy's and Nathan's rap sheets, plus color photographs. Here I quote from the Anchorage police report on what they received.
Quote. Upon observing the color photographs, it was determined that Felicia Redmond and Cindy Paulson was one and the same. And that since she had been arrested in Portland on prostitution charges on June 24, 1983, she was no longer missing and apparently in good health. No further action was deemed necessary by investigator Dennis.
Disposition. This case is closed with exceptional clearance. No further action by investigator Dennis.
That was only the half of it.
On June 15, Assistant Anchorage DA Stephen Branchflower, given the complete history of the case, stated that, quote, at this time, he would not issue any type of search warrants as there was no corroborating evidence that the victim, Cindy Paulson, had ever been inside Hansen's house.
Yeah, you heard that right. And to make matters worse, Cindy Paulson has now returned to the scene of the crime. Back and Anchorage. Thank you. Nate, when you first get back, you're too afraid of working the streets.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah, and I couldn't. I couldn't turn tricks. I was too scared.
So we would catch them coming out of the clubs, and we were doing that. They come out of the clubs so drunk and horny, and we would vamp on. Necklaces were coming off, watches, wallets, everything, and put back in before they even knew it. Or double dating.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: I would only go on double dating and double Dayton. I remember you told me, double dating with two tone when that's where you got that big nugget.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Well, see, they Two Tones people. She didn't make that much money. Or he would just spend it on coke or, you know, at the after hours, you know, she didn't make that much money. So we went on a double date with this guy and.
And I. I'm work just scraggling by.
She was.
I hate to say beneath me, but she was, you know, so for her to. Me and her to work together was like.
That was big for her.
You Know, and so I just hooked up with her. And so when we got that nugget and he was in the shower, we already had most of our clothes off. We just climbed out the window and took off running until we found a cab.
And of course, you know, she kept the money. I kept a nugget.
I'm keeping that nugget. It's the biggest nugget I found. But then I was still in touch with Nate, so I called Nate in the lower 48, and I told him I got this gold nugget that's so big, you're not gonna believe it, you know, and he's like, well, what the can you do with that nugget? I said, I don't know, but it's the biggest nut gold nugget I ever seen in my life.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Here's where we need a callback to John Gentile, the vice officer. He's the one who had all the photos of the girls who worked the street.
So once the john complained about his stolen golden nugget, Gentilli shows him the book. Yeah, he says it was Cindy.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: So I was still sending money back down to Nate.
And, yeah, so I had the nugget for a while before Gentelli came and seen me, you know, and then I would just keep going out and doing, you know, getting a little money.
I don't think I was making 500 a night, pay my motel, eat.
And then he would want me to send him money.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Gentilly asked Cindy if he could search her motel room because he knew. He just knew that she had that gold nugget, and that's where it was.
It was in her room, and it was huge. How could they miss it.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Man? If you could have seen the size of that fucking gold nugget, you know, his eyes popped out, but they couldn't find it, and it was in that room, and they searched that room, and there's no way they could have found it.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: Cindy still had a problem.
How is she going to get that nugget to Nate so he could hawk it? I mean, he wasn't there. He was south.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: And Nate hadn't came up to Alaska yet. Okay, yeah. And I'm thinking, how am I going to get this thing down to him?
[00:09:42] Speaker A: In fact, that was the least of her issues.
Mostly, she was still having problems working the street, even when she's with another girl. But as luck would have it, if you call it that, Cindy had met a wise and experienced sex worker, a veteran. Her name was Morgan. She was from New York, and she had an uncanny street sense. She instantly pick up Cindy's vibe and the trouble with Nate.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: So I was just sending money down to name.
And then that's when I saw Morgan. And she said, that girl, what have you been going through? And I told her, you know, I'm scared to date.
I'm scared, you know.
She said, well, come in the club with me, John.
You know what your people do? Leave you? Yeah, he's. He. I went down to lower 48, and he sent me back up here by myself.
And, you know, if you think about it, that's pretty shitty.
And so Morgan just took me under a wing. She had been around a few blocks more than a couple times. Yeah, yeah. And she knew. And she knew how to fold it just right, keep it right there. She knew what she was doing, you know, and I. I trusted her. I. I tucked up under her wing, and she let me.
And so she said, well, come and try and dance. And I was like, I couldn't do it. So she got me drunk off tequila and let me get up there because I had. I got. I got a rhythm.
So then she got me into it, and that's where it led from there.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: To be specific, Morgan was the floor manager at a club called Miss Kitty is also known simply as Kitties. At the time, there were a lot of clubs in Anchorage which were fronts for an organized crime.
Topless clubs, bottomless clubs, essentially, because these kinds of establishments are those that really depend on cash.
They did a scam. They skimmed the money and sent part of it elsewhere. Ms. Kitties had a different scam, and.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: They would let us dance without paying us. We would just make what we wanted, you know, for tips and stuff.
But Miss Kitties was good.
The guy that ran it, he. He would let us come in and dance what we made in chips or in the back section.
As long as we ordered champagne and we only drank the champagne and tip the dj, we were cool.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: I mean, table dance was more the thing there, right?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's where you made your money.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: So it's time to take a deep breath here.
Cindy's life is a mess.
Cops didn't believe her. She's got Nate hanging, I don't know, from the Vines somewhere, still trying to manipulate her, it seems.
Robert Hansen. Who knows where Robert Hansen is.
And she's working at a joint that doesn't really pay.
She can't work the streets because that's too scary.
So she's at a club now. Kitties.
And the word is that Kitties is going Bankrupt.
Which explains why it's so easy to get a job there. They'll take anyone.
So what Cindy needs at this point, although, again, never make her life easy. That's the trick. That's what her karma is.
She's not sure where that's coming from or if it's coming. And she's just, of course, stubborn and headstrong and going to keep on going. And so I ask her, how much money are you sending? 10, 8?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: I'm only making maybe 3, 400 bucks a night.
Who can live off that, you know?
[00:14:38] Speaker A: Well, especially since you're sending. How much of it are you sending to Nate?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: As much as I can, you know? And then it gets to the point where I'm stopping sending Nate money and I stopped calling him.
And then I'm dancing at kitties, getting loaded off my ass.
I've passed out in the front yard in my furs. Don't matter, you know, And I. I turn a couple dates, but I know they're safe.
And. And then I meet Hal.
Supreme court judge, son. Yeah, that's totally wacko. Coked out. And then Nate comes in. I. I kind of remember it. I had this white see through gown on, and I'm completely naked inside, and I got these black heels on, and I'm just dancing. And at the end of the bar, I see these two black men standing there, right? I'm high as hell, drunk as hell, but I don't approach them. And they just stand there and watch me.
You know, they're just watching me, and I don't approach them.
And that's when John told me that Nate's. Nate's back in town.
So I knew he was in town, and I went out to where his girl was because I knew where she'd be right in front of the Strip, across the street from where that guy got me by herself. And I get out the van and I tell her, I said, you know, he left me here for dead. And I talked a bunch of.
We got in the van, left, so, you know, he had to make an appearance, right?
[00:16:19] Speaker A: At this point, I'm silently applauding Cindy. She's making a break from Nate, and she needs to.
Right?
Of course. This is Cindy we're talking about. Her karma is, at this point, endless.
And she's due for a scary interlude, a flashback moment.
Wait for it. But first, there's another little problem that Cindy needs to take care of.
It's a cop named John Gentile. The vice cop? Yeah.
He's an ag.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: He said to me, all the guy wants is the gold nugget.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Back.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: You know, he just wants a nugget back. No charges filed or nothing.
So, you know, I didn't want to go to jail, and. And I felt kind of bad. Well, I said, so suppose I said, gentile, let me say this.
And I had this Hanson thing hanging on my head.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Supposedly somebody came up to the front office with a yellow manila envelope with your name on it. Attention, Gentile. You go up there and get it, and that gold nugget's in it. And I'm sitting right here, and I have nothing at all to do with it.
So what then would happen?
Nothing.
You'd be released.
I said, okay, so can you and me take a ride somewhere?
And. And supposedly it just don't happen with a yellow manala envelope.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: And he says, yeah. So we get in his car, I think it was a green car, and we go to my motel, and he lets me get out of the car and go up to my motel room that they just search ridiculously.
I get the gold nugget putting in there. But attention, gentilling.
I go. He parks in the back. I walk around to the front office.
I put this. And I said, this is for Officer Gentile. I walk back around to the back, and I'm sitting there with him. And they say, hey, Gentilly, some girl just dropped off something for you. And he goes and gets it and brings it back, and there's the gold nugget.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Okay.
And that's how it happened.
It didn't have nothing to do with her. I wasn't a snitch.
The guy got his gold nugget back. Charges were dropped.
Okay.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: That's called a win win.
A win win indeed.
Although Glenn Flothi is missing some of the details, he does remember the incident because he talked to Gentilli about it, and he has a very interesting perspective on it, a cop's perspective. The other side of the negotiation.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: And on top of that, come to find out he'd done her a favor on a theft charge. Some guy got rolled by her and her pimp, and she took his ring or gold watch or something.
Well, it was one of these deals where the guy was sort of.
The guy was a.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Pool of the.
[00:19:58] Speaker C: Community kind of guy.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:00] Speaker C: And all he wanted was his checkbook and his watch back. He didn't want no police report, and he didn't want to press charges, which set it up perfect for the investigator to make it look like to the prostitute that he was going to really do her a favor.
And so. So Cindy was in great gratitude to him because he didn't throw her in jail for that. So you give me the watch, you give me the checkbook back, it'll be forgotten about. The guy just wants the stuff back. I'll try to talk him out of it, that kind of thing.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Now, you do remember that I promised you one more shock and here it is.
You probably can guess. It's.
It's Robert Anson. And yeah, he sort of finds Cindy.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Hanson, comes in the Miss Kitties.
Yeah. So I freak out.
He's on the prowl. He's loose, freaking out.
So I know I can't be a dancer no more. @ Miss Kitties.
Leland, yet again, God saves the day by letting me see him there in that Miss Kitties. What are the chances of me being there?
One in a million.
And see him come there and me tell John and the bouncers, that's the guy right there. And they chase him out, he gets scared, he goes off and does his thing.
And then the other things process, you know what I mean?
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Save someone else's life.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Next. The next. Whoever girl would have went, got her life saved.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Thank you, God.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: If there's one, one good thing about Kitties, it's that she's a dancer.
And as a dancer, she's entitled to go to the After Hours Club.
The street girls not welcome there. You're a dancer or work in the massage parlor.
That's your place. It's a place that these people go because there's nothing else open when they get off work and they need a cocktail too.
And it turns out it's a great place to network.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: So I met the After Hours one night because we could go.
We're dancers. We can go to the After Hours. And who. Billy Joe comes in and he's got just rocks, diamonds just encrusted.
And he knows who I am.
And I know, oh, I could be a wife in law, no bother.
You know what I mean?
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yep. I don't. But, but you've. You've talked about it a lot. How it just takes a certain amount of pressure off. Right? I mean especially.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: I'm on the low list.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I can work.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: And he's got a parlor and he gives me a card, you know, that's like right up my alley.
So I go out, I work, I stack up about 1800 bucks.
And I go, I knock on the door and there's Debbie, Janice, Peggy, all of them are there.
And he's there in the back And I say, I want to choose.
And I choose. He says, okay.
Calls Nate. Hey, Nate. I call him and I tell him, guess what?
I want you to talk to somebody. Billy gets on the phone and say, I just want to let you know she chose me and she's not with you no more. Don't call her. Don't nothing.
So hang up the phone. And then a couple of days go by, Nate calls. How you gonna be with that old man? What? What are you doing? How come you're giving him my money? I said you left me for dead. Don't call me no more. Don't talk to me. Lose this number. You are nothing to me. Click, hang up the phone.
And then I have a massage parlor. I'm safe in all the tricks that come there.
It's well established, it's well known.
I have everything. I'm cool.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Cindy and I both thank you for listening. We acknowledge that her story is often gritty and sometimes painful.
That said, we promise not to sugar coat anything.
See you next time.
