Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: My name is Leland Hale. I'm the author of Butcher the True Crime Story of Serial killer Robert Hansen.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: My name is Cindy Paulson.
This is my story.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: At age 17, Cindy Paulson escaped from serial killer Robert Hansen. Her escape ultimately led authorities to Hansen's arrest and conviction on four charges of murder.
Ultimately, Hansen confessed to 17 murders, but there were more, at least 24.
Cindy was one of the lucky ones.
Note this podcast features adult themes and some salty language. Listener discretion is advised.
Episode 2 Glenn Flothy had to find Cindy Paulson, but the trouble was, he kept striking out.
It was a hell to climb, maybe even a mountain. And without her, he wasn't sure how much of a case he really had.
[00:01:30] Speaker C: I went out and found Paulson myself, though.
She'd been screwed with so much in the past by the police that I knew that I hadn't sold myself to her.
And I hadn't even met her yet. But I knew I'd have to do that, and I'd have to convince her of my integrity and my honesty and my true feelings of how she had been sort of definitely mistreated by the police, unbelieved, kicked around, treated like dirt, basically.
And these people like to be treated with respect like everybody else.
So I knew I had to convince her, be very convincing, because I had to undo what had already been done by the police.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: The nature of sex work meant, in fact, there was low trust.
Low, low trust between workers in that field and cops. They're always at it.
Plus there's the whole fluidity. Hey. In town one day, gone the next.
Clothy had his work cut out for him. He knew that.
[00:02:45] Speaker C: So the first meeting was at a hotel, and she came in, and the vice guy came in. We sat down, had fun, and he sort of basically built me up, you know, as being a good guy.
And then we had a second meeting, and then I asked her to come on down to the office. I'd like to have her go over a statement that she giving me.
Where was she? Tells his story.
Very graphic, just very graphic and. Right.
[00:03:15] Speaker D: No doubt.
[00:03:16] Speaker C: I mean, now there ain't no doubt after listening to that, that she was a victim of this guy that was killed.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: I just remember this big, tall guy, and we were in a room, and it was a different type of room. It was like a meeting room. And he said that.
That he wanted. That he thinks that I'm part of his case. And I looked at him, he says he's a state trooper, and he thinks that guy that. That I got away from killed all these women, and it was all on a board.
He says that I. He thinks that I could help him catch him.
And I was like, oh.
And it just didn't hit me, you know, he said. I said, well, what can I do for you? He says, can you sit down and tell me everything that happened?
So I sat down there and I explained everything that happened.
[00:04:19] Speaker D: Today's date, 927 83. Time of taped interview, 800 4pm Address, 27th Antarctic Anchorage, Alaska.
I, Cindy Paulson, make the following voluntary taped interview at the Alaska State Troopers on today's date. President during the interview, of course, will be myself. Sergeant McCulthy will be interviewing Ms. Paulson.
How old are you, Cindy?
[00:04:51] Speaker E: Well, my true birth date is 18.
[00:04:53] Speaker D: And what is your true birth date?
[00:04:55] Speaker E: July 5th, 1965.
[00:05:00] Speaker D: And you're 18.
[00:05:01] Speaker E: Mm.
[00:05:08] Speaker D: Last night, Cindy, I met with you and I asked you to come by today with regards to telling me again what happened back on 613 83.
And you told me that you would be willing to come by. And you said, come by this evening and with your permission then I'd like to ask you some questions and have you tell me in your own words what happened on that day involving that incident.
[00:05:40] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:05:40] Speaker D: And start at the beginning.
[00:05:42] Speaker E: Just like I gave the gentleman my telephone number and asked him to call me, and he called me and I slept through it when I was supposed to meet him. So the next day, which was Sunday, I was on corner for King Den Alley, and the gentleman here rode by, pulled in the parking lot and offer me, you know, I got in the car voluntarily most times with this man and he offered me $200 for a blow job in the car.
And I said, fine, no problem.
And we pulled over to the side by side of the house and I proceeded to give him a blow job.
And after I had got the condom on, I kept doing it.
And then he kept going around my neck like he was just tripping, playing around with my neck. And my neck was.
And he had cuffed one of my hands and I was trying to get loose and he pulled out a gun and he got my other hand cuffed. I don't know how he did just from fighting him because I didn't really.
I fought, but not a lot because I knew I could do something.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Throughout the following sections, we alternate between Cindy's 1983 self and then jump ahead 40 years to her 2023 self. And yes, it's quite a contrast.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: When I seen him, it was real early in the. It was like late in the morning So I told him, here it was Saturday.
I said, here, just give me your. Here's my number, call me tomorrow.
And so he called me the next day and his house was in Muldoon. And I been staying at Big Timber for a while. But see, there was red signs and I should have followed him, but there was no way I could have gotten out of his car.
The big sign, dead end.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: In this section, Cindy talks about retaining her tampon as evidence.
Unfortunately, DNA fingerprinting was still at least three years away.
So while it was promising, it did not factor in this case.
[00:08:09] Speaker E: And he came. I was handcuffed the whole time.
And he brought a chair over and he kept telling me, you know, if I could cooperate, he won't hurt me.
And he handcuffed me to the chair at first, and then he had changed the hands and handcuffed me to the bottom of the other chair and had my neck tied with a rope around it to the coffee table and laid me on a bare skin rug.
And I was on my period at the time and I had a tampon in my womb and he had sex with me with no rub.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: So basically unprotected sex, which is always a risk, not really what Cindy wanted, not what anyone would want.
But it gets worse.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: I didn't want to tell him they stuck that he stuck that gun up my bus, you know, I didn't want to say that, you know, that's something nobody wants to know. On a bare skin rug. Come on, that's supposed to be romantic. Every woman wants to be made love to on a bare skin rug. Me, never.
I don't want no rugs. No bare skin rugs and road, you know what I mean? That's a total turn off to me. It totally shut my sex life down.
[00:09:36] Speaker E: And then he kept telling me, you know, calm, you know, if I be okay, he won't hurt me.
And then after that I went to use the bathroom and he was falling behind me and I was handcuffed the whole time.
And I was in the bathroom, it started to come out and then he told me go back in.
And I had heard chains start rattling.
And I came out and he laid a little bed down on the floor over by the pool table.
He erupted chain around my neck four times and handcuffed me. Let me tell him a little bit.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: After her rape and a side trip to the bathroom, Cindy finds herself in chains on the floor of Hansen's den.
Hansen meanwhile, decides to take a nap.
In the meantime, Cindy starts to plot her escape and methodically Catalogs the room she's left in this state for five long hours.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: And I was freaking out. I just was trying to do everything he said.
When I went to the bathroom, I had a tampon in. So I just left it.
And then he. I heard some chains and I thought he was gonna do something to me.
I didn't know what was going to happen. I was looking for a way out.
And then he said he was going to take a nap and he was going to chain me to a pole. He chained, put the chain around my neck and chained me to the pole next to pool table while he slept on the couch. And it was one of them high wing back couch that had the little bows like this, this. And he. There's a towel in the tile. And I could tell that he's shot somebody there before because it had like a.22 caliber bullet hole at the bottom of the post with a little stud with the little indents underneath the hole. And I had to go pee really bad.
So I peed on the towel not to make any noise. But I was thinking, well, if I take the pool stick and I beat him in the head, if I don't kill him, he's going to kill me.
And then what am I going to do? I'm going to be stuck down here.
But I know he's going to kill me because he's got me chained.
There's kids toy box of toys and he's sleeping right there.
And then when he gets up and tries to chain me, I told him I accidentally peed on the towel.
But while I was chained I seen the fish, the bass fish, the paperwork. And on the dresser that goes up to the window, the ram horns.
The TV was the old style tv. I wanted them rickety stands here was too. It was had a brown and I want to say a brown and rust colored older styles that you know, kind of color to it where it had the wooden arms.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: What we now know is that Robert Hansen was bipolar. So his sleep was kind of an enforced catching up. He'd been at it for a very long time, falls asleep, wakes up ready to go again. And Cindy is in for more surprises.
[00:13:28] Speaker E: And then about five hours later he woke up and came over there and told me. I told him all I wanted to do is go home, could I live with my mom and I would never tell nobody.
And the whole time he never took none of my money, jewelry.
And he told me that since he liked me so good that he would take me to his cabin. To his cabin.
He would make love to me one time and bring me back.
And he said that he had a plane over at Merle Airfield, that we would go there, and then he would take me to his cabin and bring me back.
And I knew that I wasn't gonna come.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Just to be clear, here's what Cindy just said. I knew I wasn't going to be coming back.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: And he was just. He went from being somebody's grandpa to a monster that quick.
And it was just about force.
He wanted to have the force.
And there was no passion, just pure, violent control.
And then he told me he was going to take me up to his cabin, make love to me one more time. It was odd how he used that word, make love to me and.
And then let me go. And I knew he was really, really careful about watching me go up the steps and go into the kitchen, get in the car. And he made me lay down in the back seat of the car, and he locked the doors. And I thought, well, I could put the tarp over his head.
But the thing that bothered me the most. What if we killed somebody else and he got away?
Or what if we hurt somebody else while we're driving and, you know, I don't want to hurt somebody else?
[00:15:42] Speaker E: SA.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Glenn Flothy had quickly learned that the APD had not done a thorough investigation regarding Robert Hansen, particularly when it came to his house.
Here's Flothi in his own words.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: So then I come back and I pull that file, the APD file, of course. In the meantime, that officer has brought that file over, have one from APD that. That said, I think this is the guy he bought the file over. And unbeknownst to the APD investigator, when I'm sure worried about repercussions because he felt they really screwed up, the Boston kids didn't see his evidence or do anything, didn't take pictures. I mean, they did absolutely nothing. If there's a gal telling them there's the place, I'll take them to it. Describe the interior, describe the airplane, describes everything to it to be. And they don't document anything to the clients. Absolutely.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: There was, in fact, one huge obstacle. Assistant DA Stephen Blanchflower, he was on the record saying, quote, he would not issue any type of search warrants as there was no corroborating evidence that the victim had ever been inside Hansen's house. To counter that impression, Glenn Flothy took pains to make sure Cindy documented Hansen's house room by room, object by object.
[00:17:54] Speaker D: So he takes you to the house now, from reading the report. Apparently he had a pretty good description of the house that you gave the police.
Do you know your way around town well, or why did you happen to remember so well where it was at?
[00:18:07] Speaker E: Because when I drove past the house, there was a sign that said dead end.
[00:18:13] Speaker D: You drove past the house?
[00:18:15] Speaker E: Up to the house?
[00:18:16] Speaker D: Oh, you saw a sign that said?
[00:18:17] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:18:18] Speaker D: How'd you know this? Did you know the street?
[00:18:19] Speaker E: No, but see, when we was driving, I observed everything.
Cuz this wasn't getting away with it.
[00:18:27] Speaker D: I hope not.
[00:18:28] Speaker E: I knew I was in trouble and I really, really.
If there was any chance of me getting away. He wasn't getting away with it.
[00:18:40] Speaker D: Was there anything else unusual about the house?
[00:18:43] Speaker E: There's no trees in the front yard.
[00:18:45] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:18:45] Speaker E: Just regular crap.
[00:18:46] Speaker D: I think before you mentioned something being on the roof of the house.
[00:18:50] Speaker E: Yep. The horns.
[00:18:52] Speaker D: Horns?
[00:18:53] Speaker E: Yeah, the horns that were up there. The big old antler horns and skulls. That was everywhere in the basement. There was fish, there was wolf skins there.
Stuffed animals everywhere.
Big old like caribou and goat pits, Big old stuff everywhere. Ducks, birds.
[00:19:19] Speaker D: So you go into the garage, what happens then when you get into the garage? Are the lights on or off? On.
[00:19:24] Speaker E: It takes me up the stairs to the garage.
I mean to the house. After we get in the garage, you gotta go up the stairs about four stairs to get into the house.
And we got to the house and he drugged me down downstairs to. As soon as you walk in, there's a closet to the right, to the left, basement.
[00:19:46] Speaker D: At this time. So I know what you're talking about because I have not been in the house today.
Would you draw me a diagram of the house and I'll turn the tape off just for a minute. While you're doing that, I'm not going.
[00:19:59] Speaker C: To help you draw that.
[00:19:59] Speaker D: All right, I'll turn a tape off. At 8:34pm we're back on tape. Time is 8:42pm You've drawn some diagrams for me here, Cindy. And there's one, two, three pages of diagrams. And I noticed that you're smoking now. But were you smoking at that time?
[00:20:34] Speaker E: No.
[00:20:35] Speaker D: Okay. You didn't, you weren't smoking in his.
[00:20:37] Speaker E: House or anything like that? Yes, I did smoke in his house.
[00:20:40] Speaker D: Oh, you did?
[00:20:40] Speaker E: Yep. When I was laying down, I smoked three cool filter king fluorets.
[00:20:46] Speaker D: Did he.
Did you have those with him?
[00:20:49] Speaker E: Mm.
[00:20:52] Speaker D: What did you do with the cigarette butts?
[00:20:54] Speaker E: Put him in an ashtray.
[00:20:55] Speaker D: He gave you an ashtray? Yep. You know what he did with that?
[00:20:57] Speaker E: No.
When he had unchained me to take me to the airport. He left everything the way it was.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: Let's talk about your diagrams a little bit. Then we can talk about what was inside the house.
On page one, which I'll mark here.
Page one, page two, page three. Now that's the only thing that I've written on here is a page paper, right? You've written everything. Okay.
On the first page here you've got a diagram of a house. It's an outside of a house. And you've got little things sticking up on the roof of this garage.
[00:21:40] Speaker E: Them are the horns.
[00:21:43] Speaker D: Now, on page two, you drew a diagram here. And there's here. What is Steps. Would you mark those steps so that somebody else will know what they are?
And this is the garage part.
Okay. Right. Garage there.
[00:22:05] Speaker E: And you walk, going to garage. You walk up the street steps and go to the right. That'll take you into the house. And to the right, as soon as you walk in the door is a closet. And then to the left are some stairs going down. And there's a big moose, your buffalo head there. And then you go down some more stairs. That leads you into the downstairs part. Basement. What do you call hidden den.
[00:22:27] Speaker D: Now, let's describe the downstairs. Where do you come in the downstairs?
[00:22:30] Speaker E: From the desk.
[00:22:31] Speaker D: Okay, let's put entry there.
Entry as you. As you enter.
Where would the front of the house be? The street side, do you know?
[00:22:42] Speaker E: To the right.
[00:22:44] Speaker D: Would the street side be on which side?
[00:22:46] Speaker E: The page here, the right at the bottom.
[00:22:48] Speaker D: Oh, okay. Put the street down here.
Now, as you come in, think back and describe as you come in.
[00:23:02] Speaker E: As you come in, you look to the right. There's the chair. And all the way, way around where this funny shirt are stuffed animals.
And to the left is a window and like a washer and dryer and a bar. And then there's some clothes on the rack. And then there's a bathroom, the foosball table, a pool table. And then there's another. Another window on the street side.
[00:23:26] Speaker D: Okay, what's this over here? This square right In.
[00:23:30] Speaker E: A bar in the washer.
[00:23:33] Speaker D: You know, like a bar, like where.
[00:23:35] Speaker E: You have uhhuh, uhhuh. Like a little wet bar that things are okay.
[00:23:42] Speaker D: These lines over here.
Okay.
[00:23:47] Speaker E: After he had had sex with me on the bearskin rut, he had left my hand handcuffed and my neck tied and then connected a rope around my feet.
But that didn't work. Came in tied somehow.
[00:24:01] Speaker D: We jumped from coming downstairs to being on a bear rug. What happened in between?
[00:24:05] Speaker E: I Mean, just.
[00:24:07] Speaker D: Did he. Did he chain you up at that point? No, he didn't.
[00:24:10] Speaker E: He just tied me up to the coffee table that's here. And the TV's in the center.
[00:24:14] Speaker D: He ties you up to the coffee table. But how did he do that?
[00:24:17] Speaker E: Tie the rope around my neck. And the coffee table? There's a coffee table on the top. And then it had the compartments underneath where he could store stuff. Tied me around one of them.
[00:24:26] Speaker D: Okay, so he tied your.
[00:24:27] Speaker E: Your head right here. My head was here. And the rope here. And this chair was flipped over here. I had my handcuff there. I was laying this way.
[00:24:37] Speaker D: Why don't you draw yourself? You know, draw a stick figure showing how you work, you know, head.
How are you handcuffed in the front or the back?
[00:24:48] Speaker E: In the front.
[00:24:50] Speaker D: Okay. And did he tie your feet?
[00:24:52] Speaker E: No.
[00:24:53] Speaker D: So what you had then was chain a chain around your neck up to the post at the hook and padlocked?
[00:24:58] Speaker E: Yep.
[00:24:58] Speaker D: And your handcuffed in front?
[00:25:00] Speaker E: Yep.
[00:25:00] Speaker D: Did you have your clothes on at that time? Where were your clothes at that time?
[00:25:03] Speaker E: Sitting in the chair.
[00:25:04] Speaker D: Sitting in the chair.
What happened then?
[00:25:09] Speaker E: I stayed there for five hours.
[00:25:13] Speaker D: Did he leave the lights on?
[00:25:15] Speaker E: The one bathroom light was on.
[00:25:17] Speaker D: What did he do?
[00:25:18] Speaker E: Slept on his couch.
[00:25:21] Speaker D: Did he say anything to you after he was.
[00:25:24] Speaker E: Said he was tired because he hadn't slept in so long.
And don't wake him up because he'll be mad.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Hansen sleeps and for Cindy, it's five hours of staring at the clock.
Five hours contemplating escape.
Five hours being watched by beady glass eyes.
Glenn Flothi, meanwhile, had more topics to cover. Details.
Always the details.
[00:26:01] Speaker D: When he was having sexual relations with you over here on the. On the rug prior to being chained to the post, what did he do with the gun?
[00:26:09] Speaker E: Sitting on the coffee table.
[00:26:11] Speaker D: And that's the coffee table over here by the rug.
[00:26:14] Speaker E: We're over by the stuffed fish.
[00:26:17] Speaker D: Are the stuffed fish on the coffee table or on the wall?
[00:26:19] Speaker E: There were one. There was one laying on the coffee table underneath something everywhere.
[00:26:25] Speaker D: Okay, so when he goes to sleep, where do you go to sleep?
[00:26:33] Speaker E: On the pinkish red couch. On the red couch.
[00:26:36] Speaker D: And that's at the.
At the foot of this carpet you.
[00:26:40] Speaker E: Have drawn here by the pool table side.
[00:26:43] Speaker D: Okay. Put sleeping next to this couch here. So we know.
Did he say anything to you or talk to you when he was having.
[00:26:52] Speaker E: Sexual relations with little nasty things.
[00:26:55] Speaker D: What kind of thing?
[00:26:56] Speaker E: Like he said for me to tell him how much I wanted.
[00:27:02] Speaker D: Did you?
[00:27:03] Speaker E: No.
[00:27:04] Speaker D: Did that make him upset?
[00:27:05] Speaker E: No. Cause I was crying. You were crying and I just was laying there.
[00:27:11] Speaker D: Did he get upset at any time when he was having sexual relations with him?
[00:27:14] Speaker E: No, just because he came too fast.
Did he say anything about that made him mad?
[00:27:21] Speaker D: How did he say that?
[00:27:23] Speaker E: He said. He said that he don't do it very often.
I don't.
Just was seeing how it made him mad when he comes so fast.
[00:27:36] Speaker D: How long did he take?
[00:27:38] Speaker E: About maybe 3 minutes, 5 minutes.
[00:27:43] Speaker D: Did he just have vaginal interventions?
[00:27:45] Speaker E: Course, yes.
[00:27:45] Speaker D: Did he have analyticals before?
[00:27:47] Speaker E: No. Okay.
[00:27:51] Speaker D: Did he put his penis in your mouth at any time or anesthesia too?
[00:27:54] Speaker E: No. The only time he did was in the car. And there was a rubber on it. Condom.
[00:27:58] Speaker D: My phone is ringing. We'll take a break at 9:02 p.
What did he do when he woke up?
[00:28:14] Speaker E: He came over to me and sat down and just stared at me. I started crying. I told him all I wanted to do is go home to my mom.
[00:28:24] Speaker D: To your mom?
[00:28:25] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:28:28] Speaker D: What did he say to that?
[00:28:31] Speaker E: He just said, well, don't worry about it, you know, everything's going to be okay. I'm not gonna hurt you. And then he. That's when he told me about the other girl.
[00:28:40] Speaker D: What did he say about the other girl?
[00:28:42] Speaker E: But there was seven. He had seven other girls there before.
And see, when he said that, I knew he had killed him.
What? Girls would go and do this, you know, would let this man do this too, you know, I know he killed him.
Said that he had seven other girls and that usually he keeps him about a week.
[00:29:08] Speaker D: How long did it. Was he going to keep you?
[00:29:10] Speaker E: He said that? Well, he didn't say. He told me that since he liked me so good, he would take me to his cabin and make love to me one time and then bring me back. So I would be back by around 11 o' clock in the afternoon. And I, you know, I told him, okay, fine, that's good. I acted like I wanted to go.
[00:29:31] Speaker D: What if you would have acted differently? What would happen?
[00:29:33] Speaker E: I think it would.
[00:29:34] Speaker D: What would have you done?
[00:29:35] Speaker E: I would have killed me there in the house.
Nobody would have known. It was so thick. It was downstairs, quiet.
[00:29:52] Speaker D: Sa.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Despite her dire straits, Cindy had continuously thought about escape. Even when he moved her from his basement to his car on the way to his airplane, she thought she could run. Unfortunately, the car was in his garage and that opportunity was snuffed. But Cindy never gave up. Even when Hansen produced a rope and a gun.
[00:30:49] Speaker E: And we get in the car and I'm laying down on the Back seat with the COVID over me.
And we're driving down to the Murrow airfield. Get to the airport. And then the passenger seat, he had a rope and a gun.
And he got out and put something in the trunk and put the gun on top of the car.
And he was digging in the trunk. He said he had to put his seat in so he could tie me up in a plane.
He kept going back from the trunk to the plane.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: In an instant, perhaps less, Cindy spots an opening.
She takes it.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: And I open up.
I see him in the trunk to the plane. And he's in the plane. And all of a sudden the back door opened.
And the girls just, in my head, scream, run.
And I got so much energy and I just start running.
My hands were bleeding because of the cuffs were cutting me on the sides.
And I look back and he's running with that gun, chasing me, telling me to stop. And I just ran.
I. When I was a kid, I had really.
I could run on gravel.
I. I could run.
I wasn't good and I was still a kid, so I was gone.
I just looked back when I just ran out to the road and flashed. The purse truck just happened to be a white truck.
And man would look horrified. I felt sorry for him after I did it because I said, turn here. Stop.
[00:32:31] Speaker E: No.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: I was screaming, poor man.
But he saved my life that day.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Cindy's interview with Glenn Flothy lasted an hour and a half.
As they wound down to the end of their session, Glenn had one last question. He asked if there was anything else that Hansen had told her, something important.
Her answer was, it turned out a fitting coda. Seven other girls. @ this point, Cindy's voice lowers to a near whisper. She was remembering she thought she'd never again see anyone she loved.
[00:33:22] Speaker D: Is there anything else that this man told you that you can remember that you can tell me? Any comments that he made off the cuff type things?
[00:33:30] Speaker E: Just how he said, you know, there was seven other girls. You know, it really trips me out what happened to them.
[00:33:37] Speaker D: Seven other girls you think you know now?
[00:33:40] Speaker E: Yeah, I think I knew him.
Just another.
Can you ever. I don't know if you've ever been in a predicament where you can lay there. Well, I got this many hours to live.
I'm not gonna see the people I love no more.
[00:33:56] Speaker D: You thought you'd never see anybody again.
Well, thank you for your time and I appreciate that.
And we'll conclude the interview at 9:31pm.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Cindy and I both thank you for listening. We acknowledge that her story is often gritty and sometimes painful.
That said, we promise not to sugar coat anything.
See you next time.
