Episode Six: Lost & Found

[00:00:08] Speaker A: My name is Leland Hale. I'm the author of Butcher the True Crime Story of serial killer Robert Hansen. [00:00:16] Speaker B: My name is Cindy Paulson. This is my story. [00:00:32] Speaker A: At age 17, Cindy Paulson escaped from serial killer Robert Hansen. Her escape ultimately led authorities to Hansen's arrest and conviction on four charges of murder. Ultimately, Hansen confessed to 17 murders, but there were more, at least 24. Cindy was one of the lucky ones. This podcast features adult themes and some salty language. Lizardiscretion is advised. Episode 6 Even with Cindy's powerful testimony, Floathi knew he needed a lot more. From all appearances, Robert Hansen was an upstanding citizen. By the way, when Flothi refers to Robert Hansen as skookum, he's using Chinook jargon. It's a trading language from the Northwest, and it means someone who's trustworthy, someone who's above reproach. [00:01:40] Speaker C: It's apparent that I needed to tell a lot more about this guy because on the surface, there was a lot missing about Robert Nansen. All I had at this point was some guy that owns a bakery in town, he's a businessman, tried to rip some prostitute off the avenue as if they could ride his airplane, not bring her back, just maybe. This happened to be a separate incident. But there's a lot of maybes. I mean, there's a lot of maybes. Caught him. Yeah. Plus the guy, same pre schoolcom. I mean, from everything you heard, other things, worried about the guy. World class. See, I'm waiting for these records to come up with. Juno and APD lost their records and you can't even find them in microphone darn things. And they said, well, you need a case number so we can find on the microphone. I don't know the case. Well, then we can't find it. Can find the case now. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Slow but sure. There was progress. The biggest leap came when Flothi visited Juno and pulled out the historical records. There was a treasure trove of past cases going back 10 or 12 years. This handsome guy had been a busy beaver. One crime in particular caught his eye. [00:03:10] Speaker C: After reading the story of him taking the gal down to Kenau Lake. It showed you how far his movements were. Kidnaps a gallon, Anchorage, right all the way to Kenau Lake, 115 miles from Anchorage. Takes her on a side row and shooter and dump rover. And I think, I mean, it shows his movement is incredible. If that body had been found and not identified, they never would have known where the hell she was. [00:03:35] Speaker A: What follows is an interview at Alaska State Trooper headquarters by Sergeant Glenn Flothy. And Sergeant Darrell Gallion. They've conducted a search warrant at his house, at his plane, at his bakery, and they've brought Mr. Hansen in for an interview. Let's set the stage. In the interview room, the there's a map of the Knick river and a little note saying Hansen identified in this area. There's also 8 by 10 glossies of the victims strewn all over the desk and a photograph of his wife, Darla Hansen written on the front. You get the idea. They sit there watching him take it all in before the interview begins. And then they started asking him about all the girls who made complaints, all the girls on the avenue, all the reports. What about them? Tell us about them. Ms. Shepard, what happened with her. That was way back in 1971. He tried to kidnap her. What about the girl you took down to Kenai? You were arrested for that, remember Chrissy Hayes? [00:05:00] Speaker C: There are so many similar, separate and yet similar incidences that have happened. Each one of these girls have related a quasi similar story. And each time you have been positively identified. So there's no doubt involved. There he flight from the admissions. You took some of these girls out or picked them up or you gave them money for sexual. No, I understand that, but yet starting from going back from 1971 right up to almost current, there has been different girls that have come to the police and says, look, a person later identified as Poppy and so did this to me. He bound me, threatened me with a gun, threatened to kill anybody else. He did in fact rape me. Some of them have admitted that they are prostitutes, that they charged you money, that in fact you did give them the money, that if you didn't take the money back away from them. But if you did find him, you did threaten him, you did force your will upon him. And there's numerous similar type cases here. I think the bottom line here, Bob, is that how can all these different girls never met or never seen each other over a period of what we talked about, 12 and 13 years, all report the same thing to us and there not be some validity somewhere. You understand where I'm coming from? Yes, I do. When I take half a dozen to 12 reports up there over a 12 year span and each one of these people tell me the same thing happened to them, I've got to start believing that there's a pattern there. And if somewhere along the line, Bob, you haven't told me the whole truth, okay, there's only two people or two reasons why people don't tell me the truth. Fearful or they're embarrassed. I have yet to find anybody. [00:06:56] Speaker D: Well, I'm. I am embarrassed about this yet. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Bob, we're all grown men here or we've all been around the world that there should be nothing to be embarrassed about society except all forms of sexual activity anymore. Prostitution, everybody knows it exists. It's been around for a long time. We should be able to sit here and discuss all these things. We shouldn't be too embarrassed because we are all adults and we all are. Even though maybe personally growing up, oral sex was not discussed or something that you'd ever be. Why? Because you've already told me. She's still discussing, but I'm talking about numerous case after case after case after case over a period of 12 years. And these girls are telling me all the same thing happened. I was bound, I was threatened. Almost every incident, or I guess in every incident a gun is involved. Different guns because they describe one of them is an automatic, another three, stone involvement, et cetera, et cetera. Case or two, there was a knife, one case, there was two guns that we pulled out. And we're talking about a lot of people over a long period of time. Now you're telling me every one of these girls have lied just to get you in trouble. And they all in their own minds, made up the same story. Bob, you're lying to tell me the truth. I think there's a problem we come back to. How do we handle them? Do we treat you like a hardened criminal. Or do we treat you like somebody that has really screwed up but wants to help himself, wants to get his head screwed on right, get the problem resolved and do it the easy way for everybody concerned. That's the only question. And I just. I would not sleep good if I went home tonight feeling that I didn't do everything in my power to convince you to do things the right way. And obviously with all those girls down there, it's not the right way to go about obtaining oral sex or paid sex or sex with bondage or whatever. In case you pick up any magazine. Playboy, Pen Hills. What have they got? You know, they've got girls running around, garter belts and nylons or whatever. It's an illusion. It's the same thing with the bondage. They sell all kinds of cheese and cuss and ties and leather and all this sort of thing to create an illusion. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or at least I don't believe there is. If you particularly think there's something wrong with oral sex or bondage or whatever, I'll let you have it. I personally don't. If that's why you enjoy then you know it's fine until it goes too far and somebody gets hurt. All those girls did not lie and exact lie exactly the same way or say similar same ways that it's like reading a carving problem. All you're doing is BSing yourself. You should not BSing. And I know you lied to me about something as simple as those you think they are simply going to believe you tell me the truth about at least those two particular girls simply because you say so. And I thought you've lied to me so many times in the past here it takes courage. I think you got it. But you have to reach way down in your cell. Certainly not going to sleep good. I'm not sure that you've suffered all of them in the past. I find incredibly somebody saying both. I don't sincerely believe you're that unfeeling if you ever gave it a second. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? [00:10:48] Speaker D: Paul, there is things that I have done in my past that no I am not comfortable with. [00:10:56] Speaker C: You keep referring to things in your past and I haven't done that what you're talking about except that you allowed a girl to give you oral sex. [00:11:04] Speaker D: That's one of the main ones right there. Because it was being unfaithful to my. My wife Every time really every time I've even walked in and see a top of dance or dance. It's really being unfaithful to me. I shouldn't have been there in the first place. If I. If I had good. If I want to be honest though with you know it's something that it's wrong because it's something that I can't go home and say. My wife Darla. I stopped down to one of the clubs in the book company or wherever and went in and watched some girls take off the clothes and dance in front of me. I've even gone so far as to go down and give one $5 for a dog on table dance. Would you come up and and shaking and shaking her tits or my nose that you know is totally totally wrong. I say over and over again I done things in my past that I know. [00:12:10] Speaker C: Turn some of these girls out and put a gun to their head and tied them up and you rape them. Bob, obviously you cannot feel good about that. And yet you're sitting here. You have the courage. [00:12:19] Speaker D: I have sex with them. Yes. I had sex with and I did for Bob. [00:12:24] Speaker C: There's nobody whatever convinced me that all Those different girls in a period of like 12 years or 13 years all lied. And all their lies were so similar that it's like reading a carving copy, you know? Come on. I'm giving you credit for being an intelligent man and you're treating me like I'm some kind of an idiot sitting here. Turn it around, Bob. If you read those reports, do you think that a report in November of 71, a report in December of 71, of 1 in 74, 1 in 75 and 79, and on and on different places by different people, all involving one person and each. Each one of these girls all said basically the same damn thing and condense it right down. Now, would you think that all those girls lied? Sure. You wouldn't. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence could read those reports and know that all those girls did not lie the same way. It is all the same report to different times and different girls names on it. All boys down to you treating me like I'm some kind of a moron city, are you? And I'd like to think that I'm smarter than that. [00:13:30] Speaker D: I'm not saying you're saying that. [00:13:36] Speaker C: Did I believe what those girls said? [00:13:38] Speaker D: Yeah. Do you want to convict me on that? [00:13:40] Speaker C: No. I just want to see if you got the courage to even admit that way back then when one of those girls told the truth, that she was telling the truth and see if you got the courage to admit that she was telling the truth. I don't think you got that kind of courage. Am I wrong? [00:13:58] Speaker B: Sir? [00:13:58] Speaker D: I think. [00:14:01] Speaker C: You know, I'm not going to do anything about those old reports back there. Well, you know, obviously I can't. Even if I wanted to, and I don't really want to. [00:14:07] Speaker D: Well, I want to get clarified in my mind. I would. I think I better. This is serious as hell. [00:14:15] Speaker C: Sure. [00:14:16] Speaker D: I think I had. Might want to talk to you about. I'm gonna. I think I would like to talk to an attorney and get him to tell me it's all right to talk to you about some backpacking. [00:14:32] Speaker C: Sure. [00:14:36] Speaker D: No matter about that. I did do that. [00:14:40] Speaker C: We shall see. Okay. The time is now 1:56. Discontinue the tape of the interview. Mr. Hanson had asked for an entry. [00:15:01] Speaker B: Sam. [00:15:30] Speaker A: There was definitely a lot of action from Cindy's perspective, however, there was a bit of a lull. It was kind of quiet for a while because we're talking in September when you met with Flothi. And then about a month later they arrested Hansen. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:53] Speaker A: Were you aware of that at all? [00:15:56] Speaker B: Well, yeah, because Glenn, Glenn was doing his due diligence like you do. He's putting case together. And I told, like when I was at State Patrol coach, he was doing everything he can to bring. Bring it all together. And, and he. That's when he started. Okay, we arrested him. Now we need. You're going to be our witness. And I met the Rochester or Rod, the prosecutor. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Rothschild. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Rothschild. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:32] Speaker B: And they wouldn't, they wouldn't pay for me to stay in a motel. [00:16:38] Speaker A: Now that may sound like a complaint, even a petty complaint, but the reality as of Cindy's life, the prostitution, the pimp, the after hours club, the drugs, meant that at some level she presented an aura of volatility, of danger. The cops had to keep that front of mind at all times. They needed her, desperately needed her to keep it together. As Glenn Flothi noted of that time, quote, we didn't talk about murder. We didn't talk about pimps. We didn't talk about the street. We talked about clothes. And yet there were certain things I didn't want her to do for her, Pam. Certain things that she. It was sort of like building a trust relationship where I asked her not to do certain things I knew were illegal. [00:17:29] Speaker B: But sometimes Baker and Glenn would come and get me from the massage parlor and take me to do a blood test. And I remember that time and they took my blood and the nurse and Baker and Flozy was looking at my blood test to see what was in it. And they came around the corner and they looked at me and they looked back at the blood test and thought, what the. How can she have that much in her system and just be sitting there like she's a normal person? I remember that they would ask me, are you okay? Sure, I'm okay. [00:18:08] Speaker D: No problem. [00:18:09] Speaker B: I was high as guy, but I was composed, you know, it was. It was normal. [00:18:16] Speaker A: One of the things that was really disturbing to Flothy and to Baker was about two weeks after they serve you the, with the subpoena, you disappear. And so what I want to understand kind of initially is why did you leave when you did? Right? Like, I mean, you could have got the subpoena and said, I'm out of here. But you didn't. You waited two weeks and then you split. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Okay, well, I couldn't just keep working because everybody. I'm, I'm. I'm like a. I'm like a hot number. The cops are watching me. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:07] Speaker B: So I can't really do anything. I can't. I'm on. I'm On a fire, you know, So I needed to go and do my own thing and blend in and get. [00:19:26] Speaker C: Wild for a while. [00:19:29] Speaker A: So what were some of the thoughts going through your head? Like, start with. Start with when you get the subpoena. Right. Floi thought that. That you might have felt that was a betrayal of your trust maybe. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Okay. I don't remember much of that because I went hog wild. I. I just kind of blended into the seams. And what I did. I don't remember him giving me his pain. But then I just kind of disappeared. [00:20:12] Speaker D: For hours. [00:20:13] Speaker B: I. I went. I didn't work as much. I am. When I met people and I would hang out with strange people, people that I knew that I could get anything I wanted from them. And I think that's more of the time I first met Destin and Benny and started hanging out with them. But I couldn't really do too much with them because I have a subpoena that I had to, you know, turn in. So I couldn't be around them that month either. I went up to the North Slope and I danced and made a couple thousand dollars. I didn't take no drugs with me. That was totally off question. And I just kind of went, wow. There were other pimps that I liked. And I kind of found them a little bit. No lie. You know, tell them the truth. And we'd meet up in motel rooms and they're. They're old lady. I didn't tell them. [00:21:30] Speaker C: And. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Kid from everybody. And I was just tired of it because so high and loaded. I needed to get out of the position that I was in. [00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Because I couldn't take it no more. That's when I called Glenn. [00:22:26] Speaker A: Cindy and I both thank you for listening. We acknowledge that her story is often gritty and sometimes painful. That said, we promise not to sugarcoat anything. See you next time.